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Miscellaneous thoughts and ramblings
Tuesday, February 22, 2005
 
Judeo-Christian values versus liberal/leftist feelings
This morning Dennis Prager read his latest article on his show. The article was about how the Left makes decisions based on feelings and the Right makes decisions based on traditional Judeo-Christian values. I wanted to know what Dennis makes of liberal religious movements and leaders. What do you tell the person who reads this article, says, "Hey, I should rely less on my own feelings and more on Judeo-Christian values," then goes to a church where the minister preaches divestment from Israel. Or to a synagogue where the rabbi preaches the evil of the war on Iraq and of George Bush in general.

You could easily argue another viewpoint - what if this person goes to a place of worship that preaches the necessity of racial segregation? I don't think the parallel is all that strong, since clearly this latter case is outside of the mainstream of public thought and the others are in step with most widespread media and/or the policies of big, established religious institutions.

Anyway, that's not even the point of this post. The point is I called the Prager show to ask how the liberal representatives of the religions referred to in the phrase "Judeo-Christian values" fit into this picture. You could do a lot with this - take it in a number of directions. But all the screener could say was "what is your question?" So I tried to phrase it another way. She said, "We're only taking questions on the article." I said my question was about the article. She asked if I had read it. Since Dennis wasn't through reading it (he read only a few lines per segment), and I was in my car, I said no. She said that my question would be answered by reading it. As I guessed, and as you can verify by clicking the title of this post and reading the article yourself, the article does not answer the question in the least. All you can say is, well, those liberal leaders are following their feelings and not traditional Judeo-Christian values. Well, duh to that. That's my question - how does this happen, how do you avoid such pitfalls, etc.

Look, maybe I wasn't expressing myself clearly while doing 65 on the freeway, but it was all I could do not to be banned from calling in by calling the screener an idiot. I'm no genius and the Prager show will go on without my brilliant insights, but I felt she was doing a disservice to the show by not allowing me to bring up this point so Dennis could comment and the audience could mull it over. It was almost as if she were acting as a firewall just to be a firewall - without any smart filters, if you know what I'm talking about.

This is not the first time this has happened to me. I called a few weeks back after I thought Dennis had made a misstatement. I had to explain it to the screener three times before she finally put me through. While I was on hold, Dennis wound up correcting himself, so I dropped off. But it was clear he had erred, and fairly obviously so, since he went back and corrected himself (without reviewing the tape, obviously).

What I'm trying to say is this woman ticks me off.

Comments:
That sounds annoying. I just skimmed the article. He doesn't address it at all. Send him an email. Actually, send him two so that he doesn't think you're a crank. In the first, just ask "what about the religious left?" In the second let him know how his screener treated you. Or, not. Or stand with a bullhorn outside his house....
 
And another thing, why are you driving so slow? :-)
 
It sounds like Prager is just trying to make evidence fit his theory, and not the other way around. I'm familiar with the articles, and could see problems with it.
 
I'm a right-winger. I'm not religious. I make decisions from the perspective of what I believe works and what I belive doesn't, and often what I think is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. While my perception of what's right and what's wrong may have been influenced by being brought up in a society where Judeo-Christian thought dominates the culture, neither Judaism nor Christianity serve as the foundation for my definitions of right and wrong.
 
By the way, that screener's an idiot. ;-)
 
I'm partial to Aphrodite, myself. Hell of a lot better looking, and 10 times as fun.
 
B-n-C - I wasn't saying I disagree with Dennis' thesis - although I think there are a few chinks in his armor - but my question is more along the lines of, what good is promoting Judeo-Christian values as a moral compass when, in today's society, even what those values are is subject to liberal "nuance" in the public square.

Also, I'm not sure the Orthodox Union is like the Pope - but it's true that Orthodox Judaism has its beacons that are meant to come from outside ourselves...
 
Consider the Bible as you would the U.S. Constitution. You've got your strict constructionists (it says right here that homosexuality is an abomination) and you've got your interpretationists (homosexuals are just like everyone else because we are all sinners and God loves us anyway). Prager is a strict constructionist and he believes that a position based on the Bible is better than a position based on personal feelings. He's right.

Bean asks about religious liberals. I would say that most of them are interpretationists. However, there are many liberal viewpoints that seem to have Biblical support:

Opposition to capital punishment

Social programs

Rights for the accused, the incarcerated, and ex-convicts

Peaceful foreign policy

Thus, Prager is setting himself up for trouble if he is seeking to claim Judeo-Christian values for conservatives exclusively. He is, after all, a divorced man, and the Bible is very clear in the wrongness of that. Luke 6:41 says "Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Ball-and-Chain raises a good point: Why is it okay for me to eat pork? If I pick and choose what I want to believe from the Bible, am I not undermining its authority? This is a dilemma that I hope to figure out some day - I may have to lay off the pork. On the other hand, I've never thought twice about using the light switch on a Saturday.
 
Even interpretation has its degrees. Some things are pretty clear... Shouldn't there be some kind of a minimal standard for a religion to call itself a religion and for a constitution to call itself a document?
 
Oven - you are dead-on about the parallel between the Bible and the Constitution. It is even called a "living document"! When liberals use the that term, it means that the Bible should bend and change for our times, like those who use it for the consitution. However, it was also a traditional term, meaning quite the opposite - that its ancient principals are eternal - that is, applicable even to the current time.

I was puzzled at your examples of liberal viewpoints in the Bible, until I realized you meant the New Testament, which of course is consistent with "Judeo-Christian values." The Old Testament is pretty, well, old-school on those issues:

-Capital punishment: pretty much you gotta stone someone if they look at you funny

-Social programs - yes, but not government-sponsored

-Rights for the accused, etc. Well, I guess that's not out of the question

-foreign policy - kill every last one of 'em.

Of course - and here I'm going way off topic - Judaism is a combination of the written Torah and the Oral Torah, a spoken-word performance (never Grammy-nominated) passed down through the generations and committed to paper around, oh, 2000-some-odd years ago. Here you'll find bending-over-backwards to acquit in capital cases. Fine for cases involving, say, disrespecting your parents but more troubling, in my opinion, when dealing with out-and-out murder cases. I will say they are still pretty down on idolaters.
 
Exodus is like the Constitution. The rest of the Scriptures (with some obvious exceptions) bear little resemblance to it, in that they are a) often vague and contradictory, and
b) largely narrative and/or instructional, rather than concise and legislative.
 
That may be because different people have written it down... Theologians have identified four different voices throughout the Old Testament...

What I don't understand is how you can be more permissive with a murderer than a disobedient offspring. Shouldn't punishment fit the crime?
 
Irina - my point is that I can see why one would not want to put to death a rebellious son, but I am a little less sure why we would want to be more lenient in murder cases.

As for the different people have written it down thing, that is hardly a given, even if it has become a mainstay of biblical criticism (indeed, the whole of biblical criticism). I realize at this point I sound like an opponent of evolution, but at least in evolution there is evidence. No one has yet found any version of a separate J, E, P, or D manuscript.

Anyway, I prefer to interpret the discrepancies in the text as opportunities to learn about the meaning of the text, not its authorship. But that's just me.

Funny that the point of opening this thread was to carp about a fussy gatekeeper.
 
You are thinking of Rabbi Arthur Batman (pronounced batmun). Kippah, armored car, etc. Not affiliated with the OU but an understandable mistake.
 
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